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08-01-11 10:21 AM - Post#57356
In response to Keyel
then try reading the bible Keyel. no better.
how many people were killed for religious reasons by catholics throughout history?
islam is a younger religion, and its system of beliefs was thrown into a world that had developed past it already, without giving it a chance to catch up.
but that does not make the religion any better or worse. catholic fundamentalists just tend to be in a better social situation on average, meaning they have more to lose. someone who has nothing is more likely to give up his life for his belief.
i consider myself anti-religious. institutional belief tends to be political, following an agenda that has nothing to do with the basic ideas of the religion. as long as people dont try to tell others what their relation to god (or whatever else) is supposed to be like, i dont mind. just when someone needs someone else to tell him what god expects of him, then i start worrying..
| I condemn my soul to any god who can find it (Moist von Lipwig). |
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08-01-11 10:27 AM - Post#57358
In response to Elementis
All religions have out lived thier usefulness. The masses don;t need to be scared into doing what they want us to do. Just look at the craxzy christian guy in Norway.
It's not conceit if it's the truth.
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08-01-11 11:45 AM - Post#57359
In response to Tosun
Elem, I do not mean to be offensive but your post shows an amazing lack of understanding about Islam. I read the bible regularly, you might want to though, and the Quran too for reference. Bringing up things from several centuries ago is always a lame excuse to say you don't like Christianity but have no really good current content to work with. If you know history at all, you know it was a power abused by people in power who had nobody to answer to, kind of like our current government is trying to be. Go spend a few years in Islamic countries, I have, and you will see. You said as long as they do not want to force you into a religion...do you even know what Islam is about, cause thats pretty much it. Go into Saudi Arabia and wear a cross outide of your shirt and find out how fast they will take your head off. Go visit chop chop square in Riyad and see the people they kill in the name of Islam. Please, I expect way better posts from you than this. While doing some research why don't you look up what the most charitible religion in the world is.
Tosun, please get the facts right. That guy was not a Christian, if you read the entire paragraph he wrote, he mentions Jesus Christ but also states that he is not a believer. Even if he stated he was, so did Mussolini, so does the KKK, it does not make it true. The normal liberal left media of course spun it that way, because they have disdane for Christians, kind of like the bible says they will, so they take any piece of information they can get their hands and stretch it to make them look bad. You say it has outlived its usefulness, ask New Orleans, as Joplin, ask the children in Africa or South America or thousands of other places getting aid if its useless or not, find out who donates the most money. Know the facts brother, not liberal propaganda.
Are there bad Christians, sure people will be people, the difference is we do not teach our children to hate everyone who is not, and that if they do not convert, they are should be put to death. You can not like it, I don't care, but that is the truth of Islam, I've seen it up close.
Ever wonder why the most charitible religion, Christianity is disdaned by liberals, but the most murdersome one, Islam is protected by them. I wish liberals would go into an Islamic country and fight for ######## rights and womens rights, it would be the last we would ever see of them. That my friends is truth.
In Muslims defense I know not every single muslim is as I described above, I've known some of them too, they would even agree with my assesment. But they are in the minority in the Middle East.
Keyel
"All men have fears, but the brave put down their fears and go forward, sometimes to death, but always to victory" - the King's Guard, Ancient Greece |
Edited by Keyel on 08-01-11 11:50 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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08-01-11 01:19 PM - Post#57360
In response to Keyel
Keyel for once I am in a slight disagreement on you about the visions of muslims. I was over there, I met thousands of people who not radicals and my wife 100 times that. She traveled and knew alot of people, she was in magazines and on tv a few times. Maybe it is just Turkey, but most I met loved Americans and were not radical muslims. My wife is appaled by some of the things her fellow muslims do but she say THEY are going against the Koran/Quran. Granted there are ALOT of them but I can't say the ones that aren't are a "minority". It's just like here, you hear about the radicals because they are more vocal. It is just like MMO's lol, the whiners and the extremists are always the most heard. My wife is Muslim and so are both my kids. While I am not, I think all 3 of you have a skewed political outlook on this. lol
I'm gonna name my alt JFK and ride around on a warhulk.
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Edited by Towel on 08-01-11 01:30 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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08-01-11 06:18 PM - Post#57361
In response to Towel
Keyel, please take a look at how old the islam is, and where christianity was in the 15th century. religions develop. going by that comparison, we owe islam another couple of centuries of enslaving half the world..
my gf has lived in multiple muslim countries, and while some things are different, many are not. you tell me christians dont teach to hate on muslims? then please go and reread your own post, thats just that.
christian church being charitable? maybe partly, on the other hand, many muslim organizations fund schools and social programs in their countries as well, they just didnt exploit half the world for two millenia to rack up the funds the roman catholic church has. im sure that money was all hard earned by pious monks doing the most simple labour, and not just pillaged, plundered, and taken through slavery. they are not giving the people anything they didnt take from them in the past themselves, so i honestly will not give them credit for that.
is their a problem with the islam? in my opinion not. is there a problem with religios extremists: yes, definitely. is the approach of telling 1,5 billion people that their religion is bad, and yours so much better going to help the siutation? in my opinion, youre just making it worse. lack of differentiation is going to get people mad, and those that have nothing to lose will act on that at some point.
and please dont misunderstand me Keyel, i am not a supporter of islam. i am a clear oppenent of any kind of religious institution. belief should be between a single person and whatever he/she believes in, without anyone stating how it should look like. and it should be private and not in contact with others.
do i want to see a cross hanging in public schools? hell no. do i want religion being taught in school by someone associated to it? no way.
do i support religions and their special role in the legal system? definitely not. they are an institution like any other, the same rules should apply as to any hobby soccer club. no tax rights, same shitty rules any employer has (would like to see them sued for sexual discrimination as an employer.. hrhr), same taxes to pay. also i would clearly like to see the right taken away to influence / enlist children. if it has to be done at all, then start exposing people when they are mature enough and then let them make a decision. brainwashing minors can not be an advisable solution...
| I condemn my soul to any god who can find it (Moist von Lipwig). |
Edited by Elementis on 08-01-11 06:27 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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08-02-11 02:08 AM - Post#57362
In response to Elementis
"and please dont misunderstand me Keyel, i am not a supporter of islam. i am a clear oppenent of any kind of religious institution. belief should be between a single person and whatever he/she believes in, without anyone stating how it should look like. and it should be private and not in contact with others."
Keyel, this is well put by Elem. This is what I was refering to more in my post. I was also trying to get across that every religion has it's nut jobs.
I am all for people believing in what they will, just don;t force it on me or get upset with what others believe.
It's not conceit if it's the truth.
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08-02-11 04:25 AM - Post#57363
In response to Tosun
| I use dial-up to hone my PVP skills. |
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08-02-11 01:43 PM - Post#57365
In response to Immortalis
Towel, I know Turkey is more moderate, so is Bahrain, Kawait, and Qatar, although Bahrain is having some serious issues right now and it might not stay that way. Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Palistinian, Saudi Arabia, Lybia, Afganistan, Somalia, etc, are not. I do not believe Iraq or Afganistan will stay pro-democracy once we are gone. I know not every muslim in the world is as I posted, I thought my last statement was very clear on that, I made it for that very reason. It is very unfortunate that muslims who do speak out and say what I said recieve death threats in this country, but they are simply murdered in the middle east.
People are free to believe what they want, I will base my opinions by the facts as I see them. I listen to what their leaders say, political and religious, I've seen what they teach their children and have seen the videos of a mickey mouse character telling them to kill infidels and watched small kids repeat the same type of language. These are not fringe elements, these are the leaders of those countries and state run television. I know for a fact what happens to people in Saudi Arabia who offend their muslim religion, been there. Iran is trying to bring back the 12th Imam, look that up and then say they are misunderstood. Do you know who kills more muslims than anyone else? Muslims.
How anyone can see the writing on the wall and then simply excuse it as anything other than it is, is beyone me, sorry but it is. To defend it as someway OK for any reason is IMO dishonest. You can call it Hate Speech Elem, I don't care what you call it, I call it truth and I'm not frightened by liberal progressives who attempt to scare me with labels like hate speech, racisist, their newest one, terrorist, or any other label, have at it. Truth is truth and I won't stop speaking it, and I'm not sorry if it offends someone. My intent is not to offend anyone, but simply speak truthfully, and I understand that will.
Sorry but I will flaunt my religion anywhere and anytime I wish, although I rarely do. This thread wasn't about my religion Elem, you brought that into the conversation. Elem, this country was based on freedom OF religion, not FROM it. You don't have to live here if you don't like it (I know you don't, but you get the idea), but don't think for a moment you have the power to impose your belief system, which is athiesm, on everyone else. You are blasting others for trying to force their religion on others while doing the same thing. How is that in any way an honest argument? In fact radical islam stands for all the things you state you are against, yet you say, its a young religion, give it time, but continue to hate on Christianity based on things that happened hundereds of years ago. Really? You are conflicting your own points and won't even hold fast to what you claim to be your own principles. Sorry but you can't have it both ways. Islam is not that old, if you read Old Testement it started there, ever heard of Abraham? Islam is actually older that Christianity, please get your facts straight.
Tosun, I fully agree every religion has its nuts, West burrow baptists immediately come to mind. But when you immediately bring up Brievik as a slam towards Christianity it shows a different motivation, especially when its a lie and not founded on truth.
Someone please show me a place where people are forced into Christianity. Show me a place where non-christians are punished for not believing. The whole having Christianity someone being forced upon you is BS. I would be against that myself, that is the antithesis of why this country was founded. So please show me, and give me facts not liberal crap spewn out of a progessive media. I can show you example after example of people who are punished or killed for not following Islam.
Keyel
"All men have fears, but the brave put down their fears and go forward, sometimes to death, but always to victory" - the King's Guard, Ancient Greece |
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08-02-11 02:47 PM - Post#57367
In response to Keyel
I don't think Christianity is forced upon anyone anywhere......anymore. But it most certainly was for centuries until not to long ago in just about every civilized country  (oh...and just for shits and giggles....using the US as an example of a country founded on freedom of anything really is a joke.....slavery what?...and didnt you guys have a little weenie roast down in Salem a cpl hundred years ago 2??
....but whaT i really want to know though is......Jedi Knight or Consular???? 
| I use dial-up to hone my PVP skills. |
Edited by Immortalis on 08-02-11 02:54 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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08-02-11 06:37 PM - Post#57368
In response to Keyel
Keyel, please dont misunderstand me (pruposely or by accident *g*), i dont wish to impose my beliefs - or lack thereof - on anyone. i just want everyone else to keep his to himself and not bother the world with them. be it christians or muslims. take away the leader-follower principles from religions and you dont have those problems anymore at all. its seldom people commiting acts of violence in the name of god because they believe it, but because some f*cking idiot told them its what their god wants them to.
if you want to talk about christians and violence: take a look at Poland or Russia and their behaviour towards homosexuals, hell, even parts of your population when it comes to ########-rights or abortion. thats people trying to impose their religious beliefs wihtout doubt.
according to a survey from 2007 (cheap source: wikipedia), 78% of US citizens are catholics. that leaves a quite large minority of 22% being bothered by "in god we trust", "god save this and that" on a regular basis. laws are being influenced by religious groups and their political ambitions, people being discriminated for not fitting into the christian moral system. getting pretty close to a state religion if you ask me...
i completely agree that the islam has developed some comparably large violent tendencies that are quite worrying.
at the same time though, what annoys me so much is the hypocracy when facing this:
1.) saudi-arabia is one of the strictest muslim countries, yet the US would not dare criticize them publicly, even less stop supplying them with the most modern weaponry available for shooting at their opposition.
2.) human right infractions in china and russia dont mean crap apparently, but a country in a weaker position becomes the world's greatest evil and requires actions.
3.) the big one for me: fix the issues in your own country before trying to fix those of others. make sure people are not discriminated for religious or sexual reasons any more, as you demand of others. it surely is not to the same extent, im not saying that. but cleaning up your own back yard needs to be done more properly.
as the last point until your reply:
a big reason for the violent tendencies in muslim countries is simply their poverty. people who have nothing are always more open for extremism. in certain aspects, tht becomes a self-reinforcing process, but just offending 1,5 billion people by telling them their religion is evil and a menace.. please dont tell me you expect that to lead to vast improvements...
| I condemn my soul to any god who can find it (Moist von Lipwig). |
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08-03-11 10:39 AM - Post#57375
In response to Elementis
Slavery was in the US before it was the US, and yes it was evil, no question. Many of our Founding Fathers wanted to get rid of it during the Constitutional Congress, but couldn't. Abolishionist were active even before the revolution. If I'm correct in my history we corrected that error. What we can't do is use bad examples of behavior in history to excuse current bad behavior, instead we need to learn from them. If you read the real history there are tons of things you've never heard about before, like black congressmen and senators, black founding fathers. Liberalism tries to erase those types of things from our history because it doesn't play well with the victims card, but they are there. If not for blacks, we might not even have a country. Not to mention the women that again, with out some of them, our country might not be here.
Elem, I'm not sure 88% of the US is even Christian, let alone Catholic, not sure I'd be using widipedia as a reference. I'm not very well informed on what your talking about with Poland and Russia, but Russia is responsible for a lot of horrible things, but again, your simply pointing to another bad behavior instead dealing with the topic on hand.
You are right about Saudi Arabia, many of us in the US are not happy about our so called relationship with them, which is why we need to drill our own oil, but thats another thread *g*.
Every society has a set of standards and morals, we can debate where those morals and values come from another time. Last I checked a person was free to be a homosexual in this country, where it differs is where in the country you are how readily acceptable it is. I for one think it is wrong, but I have friends that are ########, I don't hate the person, but neither do I think they should get special treatment as a special class of citizens which is what they want. I also think killing babies is murder, others can see it as they want. You can paste the imposing religious beliefs on anything you don't like to see other people disagree with you on, but many religious people are ok with gays and many non-religious people are not, so painting someone with that broad brush simply doesn't ring true.
In this country we have large Christian influences in our laws, no doubt, it started with the Founding Fathers and the Constitution. I really hate it when the liberals lie and use dishonesty to try and convice people otherwise. The vast majority in this country like it that way, so why should we change for a few die hard liberal progressives that want no boundaries or laws execpt the ones they want to set? Its a big world, I'll keep my Christian country and you can keep yours. I'll fight to keep those religious influences in my country until the day I die, why? Because its my country and that is my set of values and principles. People who don't like it are free to go move in with you. 
I agree with you poverty plays a role, but you cannot deny the hate they are teaching kids in their own schools and madrassas. Those kids grow to be adults with those beliefs. We have "honor" killings right here in the US but muslims born and raised here. How can that be? My society does not condone that, Islam does. The problem is much deeper than most people like to think about. I know its not a confortable topic, but it is one we must expose and make as many people aware of as possible. At the end of WWII, German's still denied the death camps, doesn't mean they were not there.
I mentioned the 12th Imam earlier. Many of those countries want a Caliphate as well, look that up too. At least you won't be able to say you were not warned.
Keyel
"All men have fears, but the brave put down their fears and go forward, sometimes to death, but always to victory" - the King's Guard, Ancient Greece |
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08-03-11 06:28 PM - Post#57381
In response to Keyel
You will fight for your country following christian beliefs?
strange that muslims shouldnt be allowed to do the same in your eyes..
you say errors have been made in your country's history, and have been corrected. at the same time other countries should not be entitled to make mistakes in the first place? thats like asking a teenager to always believe what his/her parents say and never try anything stupid...
islam is a younger religion (its origins lie with the prophet Muhammadit in the 7th century), but you are expecting them to have already learned the same lessens christianity has? im not saying i consider their belief system to be one id want, but the way to changing it can only be a gradual improvement of the general situation. take a look at the change of the role of the church in western society: the better the living conditions became, the less influence the church had, and the less drastic their views became (dont see too many witches being burned around here luckily), and in the same way, reduction of poverty in muslim countries would in my opinion be the best way to reduce the overall climate of hate. on the other hand, its easy to teach people to hate someone who calls their religion evil, and is just generally better off than you.
if forced to chose, i would also take christianity over islam, no question there. i just dont believe the whole "my religion is better" thing. it just seems like a modern-age crusade to me, and thats just not a very appealing thought..
concerning Poland/Russia: after simply not allowing any ######## parades until very recently, the people taking part were attacked, and according to press reports, police joined in on the attacks... that sounds like the way to go.. (and especially Poland is a very catholic country, with high influence on the state as well, reaching the point that you cannot even mention homosexuality in pubilc media)
| I condemn my soul to any god who can find it (Moist von Lipwig). |
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08-03-11 06:29 PM - Post#57382
In response to Elementis
and while we're at it: anyone wanna explain why the word g@y (sorry for the intentional avoidance, please delete Kaliaa if unfit) is censored on these boards?
| I condemn my soul to any god who can find it (Moist von Lipwig). |
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08-04-11 12:39 AM - Post#57384
In response to Elementis
and while we're at it: anyone wanna explain why the word g@y (sorry for the intentional avoidance, please delete Kaliaa if unfit) is censored on these boards?
....Kal is of Polish decent...
| I use dial-up to hone my PVP skills. |
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08-04-11 03:23 AM - Post#57385
In response to Immortalis
Nope, Kal was tired of hearing "this is xxx", "that's xxx", "he is xxx", "she is xxx" ad nauseum.
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08-04-11 05:46 AM - Post#57386
In response to Kaliaa
Nope, Kal was tired of hearing "this is xxx", "that's xxx", "he is xxx", "she is xxx" ad nauseum.
hehe, makes sense then
| I condemn my soul to any god who can find it (Moist von Lipwig). |
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